Yes, most people prefer the name "ASUS" to the name "Biostar," but this is a budget system. Are you honestly suggesting you'd rather have a system with half the memory, half the storage, no dual-channel, and no ability to read DVD's?
People seem to absolutely love Samsung drives. It looks like the SpinPoint 80GB with 8MB cache has almost identical performance to the WD 800JB, but I can't even find anybody selling the ATA Samsung drive with 8MB cache. Having a 2MB cache shouldn't make much difference, though, so I'll have to try one.
It is pretty stupid that WD isn't using FDB like everyone else, and they actually list the 800JB as a 2-platter 4-head design, which would really hurt its transfer rate compared to modern 80GB-platter drives, although WD does change configurations without changing the model number, so you never know what they're using.
Hitachi's SATA drives all have a 3-year warranty and 8MB cache, and I use them whenever I can. They're the fastest 7200RPM drives around -- almost as fast as the new Raptors and even quieter than Samsungs.
Seeing as I just built one of these, I'll post the entry-level system I would make. Let's compare the prices without speakers or monitor.
AnandTech Entry Level system: Athlon XP 2000+ OEM Cooler Master DP5-5G11A heatsink ASUS A7N8X-X nForce 2 400 motherboard Sapphire Radeon 9200SE 64MB Western Digital 40GB WD400BB, 1-year warranty 256MB Kingston ValueRAM, PC-3200 CL3 Sony 52X CD-RW drive CasEdge 3GTS-01 Black ATX case
That's $382.00 listed in the guide. The parts are currently $368.99 delivered from NewEgg.
The machine I would build: Athlon XP 2000+ Retail Biostar M7NCG 400 nForce2 IGP dual-channel Western Digital 80GB WD800JB, 3-year warranty 512MB Mushkin PC-3200 CL2.5 Lite-On 48X CD-RW / 16X DVD-ROM combo drive APEX TM-163 Black Micro-ATX case
That's currently $372.00 delivered from NewEgg.
Upgrades I recommend for a silent system are the EnerMax Noisetaker 325W power supply and the Arctic Cooling Copper Silent 2TC Rev2 heatsink.
Maybe you could argue that 2D quality is a little better on the Radeon, but the 9200SE is a 64-bit card with a 200MHz core, it is only a DirectX 8 card, and it doesn't perform any better than the on-board graphics on nForce2 IGP boards.
The guide has chosen to use an older model 40GB hard drive with a 1-year warranty, when it is only $13.50 more for the 80GB model with a 3-year warranty and 8MB cache. They have chosen to use 256MB of CL3 Kingston ValueRAM, when it's only $37 more for 512MB of Mushkin CL2.5. They have chosen to get a plain CD-RW drive when it's only $15 more for a combo DVD-ROM. In light of that kind of hardcore penny pinching, it's very questionable to spend an extra $40 for a Radeon 9200SE.
SxRxRnRx: That places prices are certainly decent, but you don't get a monitor or an operating system, so you're not doing better than building it yourself.
The parts in CyberPower's $424 system you speak of would cost $342 delivered at NewEgg. That's everything but the case and speakers, which you can certainly get for less than $82.
It would be much better to build a system yourself, because that thing is stupid. Why would you get a Barton 2600 with only 256MB and a GeForce MX? The Anand guide has things a little more in perspective.
Personally, for an entry system, I would go with the 2000+ (or maybe the Mobil 2000+) like the guide says. I would go with an nForce2 board. I would usually go with 512MB. I can understand saving $45 on memory, though, if you really think you won't need it. I would always get a HDD with a 3-year warranty. I also think it's ridiculous to build a new system that can't read DVD's.
I have to agree with the guys suggesting onboard video for an entry-level system. There's nothing wrong with the nForce2 IGP. You guys complaining about 2D quality are confused. Most people using entry-level systems are running their desktops in 1024x768 at the most. Often they just use 800x600. These are the types of people who are more than happy playing games with the horrible "Intel Extreme Graphics." Any "SE" or "MX" video card with a 64-bit memory bus will not significantly outperform the nForce2 integrated GeForce4 MX. It's just a waste of $35.
If you're that concerned about perfect 2D quality, you should at least spend the extra $5 to get a Radeon with a DVI connector. Then if you get a good monitor you actually will be able to notice the difference.
The Biostar M7NCG 400 is a great nForce2 Micro-ATX board. It's $64.00 delivered. It has the onboard GeForce4 MX. It supports dual-channel memory. It fits in cute cheaper Micro-ATX cases that everybody likes. It also uses the same Realtek 6-channel audio as the board in the guide.
Speaking of on-board audio, it is still something you have to consider. A lot of boards now have cheaper sound chips and totally unshielded jacks that give a constant hum.
as an alternative, i've used msi's km4m with good luck for customers before, and it runs about $10 less at newegg. with decent (imo) integrated graphics, it's a popular mobo swap for aging customer systems.
You can get a way better system for a similar price here
---------------- Not only is this hyperbole its spam as far as I'm concerned. Prove you can build a better system for cheaper. Burduns on you to List parts from this vendor and price then list same parts and price from newegg. We've had this discussion and comparison numerous times in the forums. Never does retail exceed building your own.
I could not build a computer with individual OEM parts cheaper than they are selling them for. Anandtech mihgt as well just recommend some of their specials for the Budget and High End Buyer's Guides.
The default Athlon XP System there has very similar specs for only $424 w/o monitor.
Hard to beat. If you can find a site that is cheaper, please let me know.
The topic of integrated video has come up before, the problem with that is really crappy 2D IQ and text. And since 2D is very important for an entry level system, you want to have at least a Radeon 9000. Perhaps Evan should mention this in the article.
I agree an SLK1600 would be a better entry-level case/PSU combo... but AT seems to like strange cases. I have six SLK1600's in a cluster -- all tacked directly on top of each other, quite an interesting sight :) -- and they take standard ATX boards just fine. You won't be able to use your bottom 5 1/4" bay, but who needs that these days now that we all use combo drives? Anyway, at least check them out: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?desc...
You don't hear many complaints about Chaintech because no one buys them. Very few, anyway.
You hear a lot of complaints about Asus because every man and his dog owns at least one, including a lot of stupid dogs who take no anti-static precautions and end up with a dead board a few months after intallation.
But if you are worried about board quality, get the Abit. I own three different abit models (four boards in total, two are of that same NF7-S model) and they are fantastic. The only A7N8X-X I bought died on me, though strangely enough I think it was my tricked-out 9500 NP that killed it, since I quite thoroughly voided the warranty on that li'l beastie and it had been showing signs of failure when my A7N8X-X died :(
Another thing Evan you should really check out Dynatron Copper CPU Cooler Model "BH-610" For only $8 at newegg.
It absoluty stomps any sub $20 cooler. Read the user reviews at newegg.com all five stars. My son is running a overclocked 2400 barton to 2.34 Ghz off it and stays below 50C.
I think this is a matter of what you define as an "entry-level" system... but wouldn't integrated video, as available in either nForce2 or Via's KM line, be both more appropriate and cheaper? Saves roughly $40-50.
Also, for another example of price savings, your case specs out at $71 with power supply... if you're willing to get a MicroATX motherboard, which at this point barely impacts the price for Socket A, it's very reasonable to get the Antec SLK1600, with a 300W Antec PS included, for $42.
Oh, and blckgrffn mentioned reliability issues - I know this will sound strange, but I've heard of more problems with Asus boards lately than positive comments. On the other hand, Chaintech sells cheaper boards at the same feature point (several of which are MicroATX as well), and surprisingly, I've never heard a serious complaint.
"All this adds up to noticeably better performance that, depending on what applications are run, you may or may not notice."
...sounds increadibly silly. You can't go saying it "adds up to noticeably better performance" thereby implying it *DEFINATELY* does so, and then say in the same sentence "may or may not notice"
I suggest you replace the entire sentence and those that follow it with :
1) A clear explanation of which situations the performance *WILL BE* noteiceably better.
2) A clear explanation of which situations the performance *WILL NOT BE* noticeably better.
As things stand, your statement sounds like typical reviewer double talk, that is, unwillingness to take a clear stance on which situations a product performs better than a similar one.
DanDeighan, that cooler is rated past a 2000+, it's good. Either way, you can get a retail 2000+ for just $5 more anyway, as I mentioned.
Grelk, we have corrected that error, thanks.
blckgrffn, neither product has been proven to be more unreliable than their competition. That's true in our own experience as well. I'd be interested in knowing where you got the impression the Sony/WD products I recommended are unreliable.
l3ored, yes, we are currently in the middle of adding guides and switching responsibilities among editors. We will be adding an SFF and gaming guide, and Wesley Fink will be handling the high end and overclocking guides now.
Dismal, we only skipped last week's guide, for good reason. :)
jensend, thanks for the audio correction. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your cpu alternative note.
cosmotic, the nForce2 board we recommended is single channel. nForce2 400. The alternative board is nForce2 Ultra 400 though, yes.
JenSend, rather than that why not look for where they're getting their Sound Cards... after all, a free Audigy 2 is a relatively good deal, compared to the Audigy at $35.
This statement from the cpu alternative page needs work: "All this adds up to noticeably better performance that, depending on what applications are run, you may or may not notice."
The audio page also needs to be changed to say "Recommendation: Onboard audio" rather than "Recommendation: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 (6.1) OEM", which it currently says.
Why are we insisting on WD hard drives and Sony opticals? Both have been very unreliable, in my opinion. I really like samsungs for both now. At least none of them have fail so far, and they are much quieter.
Other than that, I would upgrade to 512 or at least 384 for ram and call it good! I would also got the Abit motherboard, too, its feature set is worth the $11.
I think you suggested the wrong budget cooler for the Athlon XP200+. The Cooler Master DP5-5G11A is only rated for Athlon's up to 850Mhz, according to Newegg.
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27 Comments
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Tostada - Monday, May 24, 2004 - link
Yes, most people prefer the name "ASUS" to the name "Biostar," but this is a budget system. Are you honestly suggesting you'd rather have a system with half the memory, half the storage, no dual-channel, and no ability to read DVD's?We're talking about best bang for the buck here.
guitarizt - Friday, May 21, 2004 - link
I'd rather have the asus than the biostar.Tostada - Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - link
People seem to absolutely love Samsung drives. It looks like the SpinPoint 80GB with 8MB cache has almost identical performance to the WD 800JB, but I can't even find anybody selling the ATA Samsung drive with 8MB cache. Having a 2MB cache shouldn't make much difference, though, so I'll have to try one.It is pretty stupid that WD isn't using FDB like everyone else, and they actually list the 800JB as a 2-platter 4-head design, which would really hurt its transfer rate compared to modern 80GB-platter drives, although WD does change configurations without changing the model number, so you never know what they're using.
Hitachi's SATA drives all have a 3-year warranty and 8MB cache, and I use them whenever I can. They're the fastest 7200RPM drives around -- almost as fast as the new Raptors and even quieter than Samsungs.
Zebo - Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - link
I with Tostada. Excellent work.:)Especially the Biostar mobo combo. I would change the HD to Samsung spinpoint simply because they are quieter:)
XRaider - Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - link
Good point Tostada. I will have to agree with you on the entry system that you have proposed. Parts are alil better.Tostada - Monday, May 17, 2004 - link
Seeing as I just built one of these, I'll post the entry-level system I would make. Let's compare the prices without speakers or monitor.AnandTech Entry Level system:
Athlon XP 2000+ OEM
Cooler Master DP5-5G11A heatsink
ASUS A7N8X-X nForce 2 400 motherboard
Sapphire Radeon 9200SE 64MB
Western Digital 40GB WD400BB, 1-year warranty
256MB Kingston ValueRAM, PC-3200 CL3
Sony 52X CD-RW drive
CasEdge 3GTS-01 Black ATX case
That's $382.00 listed in the guide. The parts are currently $368.99 delivered from NewEgg.
The machine I would build:
Athlon XP 2000+ Retail
Biostar M7NCG 400 nForce2 IGP dual-channel
Western Digital 80GB WD800JB, 3-year warranty
512MB Mushkin PC-3200 CL2.5
Lite-On 48X CD-RW / 16X DVD-ROM combo drive
APEX TM-163 Black Micro-ATX case
That's currently $372.00 delivered from NewEgg.
Upgrades I recommend for a silent system are the EnerMax Noisetaker 325W power supply and the Arctic Cooling Copper Silent 2TC Rev2 heatsink.
Maybe you could argue that 2D quality is a little better on the Radeon, but the 9200SE is a 64-bit card with a 200MHz core, it is only a DirectX 8 card, and it doesn't perform any better than the on-board graphics on nForce2 IGP boards.
The guide has chosen to use an older model 40GB hard drive with a 1-year warranty, when it is only $13.50 more for the 80GB model with a 3-year warranty and 8MB cache. They have chosen to use 256MB of CL3 Kingston ValueRAM, when it's only $37 more for 512MB of Mushkin CL2.5. They have chosen to get a plain CD-RW drive when it's only $15 more for a combo DVD-ROM. In light of that kind of hardcore penny pinching, it's very questionable to spend an extra $40 for a Radeon 9200SE.
Tostada - Sunday, May 16, 2004 - link
SxRxRnRx: That places prices are certainly decent, but you don't get a monitor or an operating system, so you're not doing better than building it yourself.The parts in CyberPower's $424 system you speak of would cost $342 delivered at NewEgg. That's everything but the case and speakers, which you can certainly get for less than $82.
Athlon XP 2600+: $90.00 (Retail)
ASUS A7N8X-X: $76.00
256MB PC3200: $46.00 (Apacer)
80GB 7200RPM drive: $67.00 (WD800BB)
Nvidia GeForce 64MB Video: $36.00 (GeForce2 MX400)
52X CD-RW: $27.00 (Samsung)
It would be much better to build a system yourself, because that thing is stupid. Why would you get a Barton 2600 with only 256MB and a GeForce MX? The Anand guide has things a little more in perspective.
Personally, for an entry system, I would go with the 2000+ (or maybe the Mobil 2000+) like the guide says. I would go with an nForce2 board. I would usually go with 512MB. I can understand saving $45 on memory, though, if you really think you won't need it. I would always get a HDD with a 3-year warranty. I also think it's ridiculous to build a new system that can't read DVD's.
I have to agree with the guys suggesting onboard video for an entry-level system. There's nothing wrong with the nForce2 IGP. You guys complaining about 2D quality are confused. Most people using entry-level systems are running their desktops in 1024x768 at the most. Often they just use 800x600. These are the types of people who are more than happy playing games with the horrible "Intel Extreme Graphics." Any "SE" or "MX" video card with a 64-bit memory bus will not significantly outperform the nForce2 integrated GeForce4 MX. It's just a waste of $35.
If you're that concerned about perfect 2D quality, you should at least spend the extra $5 to get a Radeon with a DVI connector. Then if you get a good monitor you actually will be able to notice the difference.
The Biostar M7NCG 400 is a great nForce2 Micro-ATX board. It's $64.00 delivered. It has the onboard GeForce4 MX. It supports dual-channel memory. It fits in cute cheaper Micro-ATX cases that everybody likes. It also uses the same Realtek 6-channel audio as the board in the guide.
Speaking of on-board audio, it is still something you have to consider. A lot of boards now have cheaper sound chips and totally unshielded jacks that give a constant hum.
gordon151 - Sunday, May 16, 2004 - link
Athlon XP 2500+ Retail - $80ABIT VA-10 KM400 mATX mBoard - $53
In-Win Black mATX Tower Case - $50
Mid and full tower ATX cases are a little too bulky for my tastes in use of an entry level computer.
scuzzmaster - Sunday, May 16, 2004 - link
as an alternative, i've used msi's km4m with good luck for customers before, and it runs about $10 less at newegg. with decent (imo) integrated graphics, it's a popular mobo swap for aging customer systems.Zebo - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
Oh and don't forget to include shipping. Some guys promote Dells "specials" and fail to mention thier shipping is around $150 sometimes.Zebo - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
You can get a way better system for a similar price here----------------
Not only is this hyperbole its spam as far as I'm concerned. Prove you can build a better system for cheaper. Burduns on you to List parts from this vendor and price then list same parts and price from newegg. We've had this discussion and comparison numerous times in the forums. Never does retail exceed building your own.
SxRxRnRx - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
You can get a way better system for a similar price here:http://www.cyberpowersystem.com/
I could not build a computer with individual OEM parts cheaper than they are selling them for. Anandtech mihgt as well just recommend some of their specials for the Budget and High End Buyer's Guides.
The default Athlon XP System there has very similar specs for only $424 w/o monitor.
Hard to beat. If you can find a site that is cheaper, please let me know.
Thanks.
gherald - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
The topic of integrated video has come up before, the problem with that is really crappy 2D IQ and text. And since 2D is very important for an entry level system, you want to have at least a Radeon 9000. Perhaps Evan should mention this in the article.I agree an SLK1600 would be a better entry-level case/PSU combo... but AT seems to like strange cases. I have six SLK1600's in a cluster -- all tacked directly on top of each other, quite an interesting sight :) -- and they take standard ATX boards just fine. You won't be able to use your bottom 5 1/4" bay, but who needs that these days now that we all use combo drives?
Anyway, at least check them out: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?desc...
You don't hear many complaints about Chaintech because no one buys them. Very few, anyway.
You hear a lot of complaints about Asus because every man and his dog owns at least one, including a lot of stupid dogs who take no anti-static precautions and end up with a dead board a few months after intallation.
But if you are worried about board quality, get the Abit. I own three different abit models (four boards in total, two are of that same NF7-S model) and they are fantastic. The only A7N8X-X I bought died on me, though strangely enough I think it was my tricked-out 9500 NP that killed it, since I quite thoroughly voided the warranty on that li'l beastie and it had been showing signs of failure when my A7N8X-X died :(
Zebo - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
Another thing Evan you should really check out Dynatron Copper CPU Cooler Model "BH-610" For only $8 at newegg.It absoluty stomps any sub $20 cooler. Read the user reviews at newegg.com all five stars. My son is running a overclocked 2400 barton to 2.34 Ghz off it and stays below 50C.
Zebo - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
$62 for a processor oouch$70!! for a case really ouch
$69 for a motherboard ouch
Duron 1.8Ghz = $40
POWMAX Case with 400W PSU = $22
Shuttle AN31N = $55
Now go buy some decent amount of ram and a RAPTOR hardrive with the savings.
EPAstor - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
I think this is a matter of what you define as an "entry-level" system... but wouldn't integrated video, as available in either nForce2 or Via's KM line, be both more appropriate and cheaper? Saves roughly $40-50.Also, for another example of price savings, your case specs out at $71 with power supply... if you're willing to get a MicroATX motherboard, which at this point barely impacts the price for Socket A, it's very reasonable to get the Antec SLK1600, with a 300W Antec PS included, for $42.
Oh, and blckgrffn mentioned reliability issues - I know this will sound strange, but I've heard of more problems with Asus boards lately than positive comments. On the other hand, Chaintech sells cheaper boards at the same feature point (several of which are MicroATX as well), and surprisingly, I've never heard a serious complaint.
Just a few ideas.
gherald - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
The statement:"All this adds up to noticeably better performance that, depending on what applications are run, you may or may not notice."
...sounds increadibly silly. You can't go saying it "adds up to noticeably better performance" thereby implying it *DEFINATELY* does so, and then say in the same sentence "may or may not notice"
I suggest you replace the entire sentence and those that follow it with :
1) A clear explanation of which situations the performance *WILL BE* noteiceably better.
2) A clear explanation of which situations the performance *WILL NOT BE* noticeably better.
As things stand, your statement sounds like typical reviewer double talk, that is, unwillingness to take a clear stance on which situations a product performs better than a similar one.
Evan Lieb - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
DanDeighan, that cooler is rated past a 2000+, it's good. Either way, you can get a retail 2000+ for just $5 more anyway, as I mentioned.Grelk, we have corrected that error, thanks.
blckgrffn, neither product has been proven to be more unreliable than their competition. That's true in our own experience as well. I'd be interested in knowing where you got the impression the Sony/WD products I recommended are unreliable.
l3ored, yes, we are currently in the middle of adding guides and switching responsibilities among editors. We will be adding an SFF and gaming guide, and Wesley Fink will be handling the high end and overclocking guides now.
Dismal, we only skipped last week's guide, for good reason. :)
jensend, thanks for the audio correction. I'm not sure what you are referring to in your cpu alternative note.
cosmotic, the nForce2 board we recommended is single channel. nForce2 400. The alternative board is nForce2 Ultra 400 though, yes.
KillaKilla - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
JenSend, rather than that why not look for where they're getting their Sound Cards... after all, a free Audigy 2 is a relatively good deal, compared to the Audigy at $35.cosmotic - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
You should recomend using dual channel memory. 2x128 will be a lot faster then 1x256 in an nForce2 MB.jensend - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
This statement from the cpu alternative page needs work: "All this adds up to noticeably better performance that, depending on what applications are run, you may or may not notice."The audio page also needs to be changed to say "Recommendation: Onboard audio" rather than "Recommendation: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy 2 (6.1) OEM", which it currently says.
GP40X - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
Yep, I've been going through withdrawl waiting for the overclocked system. Hope it didn't get lost in the shuffleDismal - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
woo, i'm glad these are back.. I was beginning to think they stopped doing them.l3ored - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
you skipped the overclocking system...blckgrffn - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
Why are we insisting on WD hard drives and Sony opticals? Both have been very unreliable, in my opinion. I really like samsungs for both now. At least none of them have fail so far, and they are much quieter.Other than that, I would upgrade to 512 or at least 384 for ram and call it good! I would also got the Abit motherboard, too, its feature set is worth the $11.
Nat
Grelk - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
Why are there repeating pricing lists for the processors but none for the motherboards?DanDeighan - Saturday, May 15, 2004 - link
I think you suggested the wrong budget cooler for the Athlon XP200+. The Cooler Master DP5-5G11A is only rated for Athlon's up to 850Mhz, according to Newegg.